<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1318</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	11/5/99 6:17:49 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest      Friday, November 5 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 1318<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: ohh...an ob-trav out of a political discussion<BR>
Re: Private Sector Artillery<BR>
Re: Cons On Ice Scenario Idea<BR>
re: Justice and Civil vs Criminal <BR>
Re: Vs: Glitches after maintenance<BR>
Re: Justice and Criminal vs Civil<BR>
Hiverspeak Online<BR>
Re: Wild blue claims<BR>
re: Wild Blue Claims<BR>
Re: Justice and Criminal vs Civil <BR>
Re: xenophobia<BR>
Re: xenophobia<BR>
Re: Justice and Criminal vs Civil <BR>
Re: Klingon Software Quality Assurance (fwd)<BR>
Re: [OT] Re: Website revamped and Deckplans up<BR>
Re: GT Starship gearheadedness (kinda long)<BR>
Re: OT: 2nd Amendment<BR>
Re: Cons On Ice Scenario Idea<BR>
Re: Border Guards <BR>
RE: Nonhuman languages<BR>
Marc Miller's new website for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 15:47:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: ohh...an ob-trav out of a political discussion<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> In most US states, black powder weapons, including percussion cap six guns <BR>
>> are legal and pretty much un-regulated.<BR>
>> On high tech worlds, are lower tech weapons regulated as stringently as <BR>
>> more modern weapons?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> For example on a TL 15 planet, you can't walk into a hardware store and <BR>
> buy <BR>
>> a set of Battledress, there may be a local version of the SCA with very <BR>
>> functional crossbows, swords and whatnot.  Hell, their version of the SCA <BR>
>> might be a fairly twisted 'old west' or an urban gansta recreation <BR>
> complete <BR>
>> with sawed off shotguns and wonder-nines.<BR>
><BR>
> Heheh.  Shades of 'Captain Proton', from the cheesy sci fi wannabe show.<BR>
<BR>
Or Honor Harrington's uncle in the SCA whose favorite period was early<BR>
20th century. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 15:38:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Private Sector Artillery<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> Another item for my "If I win the Lottery" list. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> Would you care to be invited to fire a 40 pounder on the coast? Say<BR>
>> from Battery Russell if they let us? :-)<BR>
><BR>
> Leonard, you pick the date, time, and place... and I am *THERE*! :^)<BR>
<BR>
Great. Now I just have to print^H^H^H^H^Hfind that winning lottery<BR>
ticket. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 15:51:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Cons On Ice Scenario Idea<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
><BR>
>> "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us> wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> > PCs come across a STL generation vessel, with several thousand<BR>
>> > members of some minor race held in Cold Sleep.  Probably no info<BR>
>> > available to translate the linguistics of the computer records, and<BR>
>> > everything on board indicates that this is a colony ship of some form<BR>
>> > or another.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Uh-huh.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> <montelbam><BR>
>> Kiiiiirrrrrrrkkkkkk!!!<BR>
>> </montelbam><BR>
>> <BR>
>> <shatner><BR>
>> Kaaaaaahhhhhhnnnnnn!!!<BR>
>> </shatner><BR>
><BR>
> That thought did race through my mind as I typed that paragraph in.  <BR>
> *grin*<BR>
><BR>
> Other than that, what could you suggest or expound on?<BR>
<BR>
I'd suggest checking out a few of the "classic" generation ship<BR>
stories. Heinlein's "Orphans of the Sky" has a generation ship that has<BR>
descended into barbarism after a mutiny among the crew killed too many<BR>
people. <BR>
<BR>
Then there's Brian Aldiss's "Starship" where we have another generation<BR>
ship where things have gone badly wrong. Though it takes a while to<BR>
realize that's the setting. In this case, they are on the way *back*<BR>
from a coplonizing trip that didn't work out. And things have gone<BR>
wrong because of something they picked up.<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, I knew there was at least one more! Delany's "The Ballad of<BR>
Beta 2" (this and "Babel-17" are Delany books for people who don't like<BR>
his better known books). It's pretty short, but it deals with a culture<BR>
on generation ships as well. It's got a sort of "anthropologist" doing<BR>
a followup to an earlier "cultural survey" of the culture on a fleet<BR>
fleet of generation ships that had been discovered many, many years<BR>
back in orbit around a star that wasn't theor original destination.<BR>
It's got nice touches such as vocabulary shifts as succeeding<BR>
generations found new uses for words that didn't have a referent in<BR>
their "world" ("sand" was what they called interstellar high radiation<BR>
areas, being mostly in low g or no g "arms" shifted to mean "limb", and<BR>
"sore feet" was a term describing the way they felt in a normal g area.<BR>
<BR>
There's another one that I can't recall the author of. It's got a<BR>
pseudo Aztec culture living in a mountain valley. And then our hero<BR>
decides to break the taboos and go exploring. He climbs the monutains<BR>
and finds that they touch the sky! Turns out the "valley" is the inside<BR>
of a generation ship. I can't recall why the passengers were handled<BR>
that way. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:16:41 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: Justice and Civil vs Criminal <BR>
<BR>
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
<BR>
>The appearance was of multiple attempts to "get" the <BR>
>officers, a semblance of legal maneuvering to avoid <BR>
>the protections against double jeapardy. The Feds did<BR>
<BR>
>not push for an appeal, therefore they must have seen<BR>
<BR>
>no *legal* grounds for overturning the court's<BR>
> decision.  <BR>
<BR>
That's correct:  There were no legal grounds for<BR>
overturning the trial court's decision, which was a<BR>
jury verdict for acquittal.  The government can never<BR>
appeal from an acquittal after trial.  The result of<BR>
winning such an appeal would be a new trial over the<BR>
same crime:  that is, double jeopardy.<BR>
<BR>
Double jeopardy, as understood in the United States,<BR>
has always meant that the government cannot try a<BR>
defendant twice for the same crime, and the doctrine<BR>
has always recognized that more than one government<BR>
with prosecution power exists.  That is, the federal<BR>
government and each state's government (if it has<BR>
jurisdiction) can prosecute the same defendant for the<BR>
same crime.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:08:05 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Glitches after maintenance<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> J2K wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Have one of the major components suffer a fake malfunction. This means<BR>
>>that when they run a self-diagnostic program, it gets convinced that<BR>
>>there's something wrong with some esoteric part. The characters can check<BR>
>>it, "repair" it or even replace it, and the program is still convinced<BR>
>>there's something wrong. Finding out the problem with the electronics<BR>
>>involved in the self-diagnostics can take time. (Especially when the<BR>
>>"malfunction" is on some vital piece of machinery, and it can't be used<BR>
>>because of inbuilt safeties.)<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
> This could be especially effective if the PCs have ever seen '2001: A Space<BR>
> Odyssey'...<BR>
><BR>
> HAL9000: "Just a moment... just a moment..."<BR>
><BR>
> Hapless Frank: "What's the trouble, HAL?"<BR>
><BR>
> HAL9000: "I am detecting a problem with the AE-35 unit; I predict it will<BR>
> go 100% failure within 72 hours."<BR>
><BR>
> Frank & Dave think to themselves as they prepare to make the repair: "This<BR>
> is great!  At last, something to break the tedium around here!"<BR>
><BR>
> Little do they suspect the *real* malfunction...<BR>
<BR>
And, alas, few people who have *only* seen the movie know what the real<BR>
malfunction was. As was (not very well) explained in the movie version<BR>
of 2010, the problem was that security concious idiots told HAL that<BR>
under no circumstances could he reveal the *real* mission to the crew<BR>
until they arrived at Jupiter. And at the same time they told him the<BR>
mission *must* accomplish its goal. <BR>
<BR>
The natural result was that at some point these hidden instructions led<BR>
to a conflict because he *couldn't* tell the crew *why* they couldn't<BR>
change plans, but he couldn't let them change plans either.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:13:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Justice and Criminal vs Civil<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Mr. King proceeded to sue, of course (taking the officers to<BR>
>>civil court), as expected. What I did not expect was for the<BR>
>>United States Federal Government to charge the officers with<BR>
>>violating Mr. King's civil rights. It looked like the government<BR>
>>had decided that this high-profile, emotionally charged circus<BR>
>>of a case needed a guilty verdict for spin purposes, and tried to<BR>
>>create a guilty verdict themselves when the courts in California<BR>
>>did not do so.<BR>
><BR>
>         Would you then completely rule out the possibility that<BR>
>         certain human beings in the federal government thought <BR>
>         that the officers broke the law?<BR>
<BR>
It doesn't matter *what* they thought. The offficers had been acquiited<BR>
in a court of law. And legally, that made them immune for *any*<BR>
prosecution for the *actions* involved. Not merely the crime that they<BR>
were tried for, but for any other crime that that set of actions might<BR>
fall under.<BR>
<BR>
That's the whole *basis* for "double jeopardy". The British<BR>
government's habit of retrying people on different charges for the same<BR>
*act* until they got a conviction is one of the things that led to the<BR>
American Revolution. <BR>
<BR>
>  It might be interesting<BR>
>         to have a TU world with competing systems of law, where<BR>
>         jurisdictions overlap and the courts go out of their way<BR>
>         to embarrass the other courts.  Players caught in the<BR>
>         middle might have a bad time ;)<BR>
<BR>
Heck, just have one without the double jeopardy rule. Strict or loose.<BR>
(Strict "no retrial for the same *act* once acquitted", loose "no<BR>
retrial for the same *charge*")<BR>
<BR>
That second one ought to surprise the heck out of players.<BR>
<BR>
"But they already tried him on that charge and found him innocent!"<BR>
"Yes, but the government decided that a retrial was in order. Perfectly<BR>
legal...."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 19:24:22 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: Hiverspeak Online<BR>
<BR>
I should point out again that something easily usable as the Hiver<BR>
language has already been done, and has a great presentation on the web<BR>
at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.suberic.net/~dmm/rikchik/intro.html<BR>
<BR>
So far as I know Denis didn't have the Hiver in mind, and may not even be<BR>
familiar with Traveller.  It's pretty nifty all around.<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 19:26:39 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Wild blue claims<BR>
<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, that's more due to TL differences. With the tech the Iraqis<BR>
>had, they *were* camoflauged and/or "behind cover".<BR>
><BR>
>Imagine their shock when it became clear that as far as *our* gear was<BR>
>concerned, they had neither.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Interestingly enough, as impressive as coalition air power was, last I heard<BR>
there wasn't a single confirmed kill of an actual scud missile launcher.<BR>
Seems that the Iraqis were *really* fond of decoys, and they kept their scud<BR>
launchers in motion at all times.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:41:41 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: Wild Blue Claims<BR>
<BR>
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU<BR>
<BR>
>While I agree that historians must interpret, they <BR>
>must show that their interpretation logically and <BR>
>justifiably follows from the facts. <BR>
<BR>
Agreed.  Of course, that's inextricably intertwined<BR>
with presentation of the facts.  <BR>
<BR>
>There has been considerable danger, at least lately <BR>
>in the United States, that historians and other <BR>
>social scientists will start with the interpretation <BR>
>and *then* start putting the facts together, with <BR>
>predictable results.<BR>
<BR>
(1) "at least lately in the United States":  The<BR>
danger has been long recognized.  Herodotus himself is<BR>
called both the father of history and the father of<BR>
lying.  <BR>
<BR>
(2) No one is a blank slate.  The faceless historians<BR>
and social scientists you mention studied history and<BR>
have read a lot of interpretations and facts and<BR>
developed their rhetorical and analytical skills.  The<BR>
process of producing historical work ordinarily starts<BR>
with choosing a subject with which the historian has<BR>
some familiarity, and therefore also some<BR>
preconceptions.  To work in a totally unfamiliar area<BR>
is generally not an efficient use of one's time.  <BR>
<BR>
The next part is research, which may challenge those<BR>
preconceptions.  In fact, research is a constant<BR>
process of interpreting what you're seeing and trying<BR>
to fit it into context or changing the context -- the<BR>
preconceptions -- so that the facts found in research<BR>
can be explained.  <BR>
<BR>
obTrav:  Don't forget Dev Landrel.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 19:32:54 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Justice and Criminal vs Civil <BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Well, yes, I grew up in AMERICA, where (like in the 3I) racism is<BR>
> > BASICALLY a thing of the past and so-called "xenophobia" is just a matter<BR>
> > of PRACTICAL NECESSITY. I realize that other countries are not as<BR>
> > progressive as OURS.<BR>
> <BR>
> Mind if I ask when you grew up here, Kenji-san?<BR>
<BR>
Who says I grew up?<BR>
<BR>
And that's Shuwarutsu-san.  Kuroda-san if you're nasty.<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:36:16 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: xenophobia<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 14:56:57 -0800<BR>
> From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
> <BR>
> >LOL, Kenji-san!  Do you really think humaniti will ever outgrow<BR>
> >xenophobia<BR>
> <BR>
> Sure, humans have the capacity for moral greatness, but what about<BR>
> about all those BEM's? <BR>
<BR>
...And thus was born the Hudson Doctrine, also known as the "more or less<BR>
brown or tan and relatively furless bipedal person's burden."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net<BR>
 --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html<BR>
   |   "They do not preach that their God will rouse them<BR>
      a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 19:36:20 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: xenophobia<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >LOL, Kenji-san!  Do you really think humaniti will ever outgrow xenophobia<BR>
> <BR>
>   Sure, humans have the capacity for moral greatness, but what about about<BR>
> all those BEM's?<BR>
<BR>
Although it's important that we treat minor races with compassion and<BR>
patience, the sad fact is that they just don't have the natural capacities<BR>
that we do for progress and development.  In fact, they're a drag on the<BR>
technological advancement of the Third Imperium.  Fortunately, our<BR>
adaptive superiority lets us kill 'em real good.  And what can be more<BR>
moral than PROVEN RESULTS?<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:43:32 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Justice and Criminal vs Civil <BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Kenji Schwarz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > > Well, yes, I grew up in AMERICA, where (like in the 3I) racism is<BR>
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
<BR>
> > > BASICALLY a thing of the past and so-called "xenophobia" is just a matter<BR>
> > > of PRACTICAL NECESSITY. I realize that other countries are not as<BR>
> > > progressive as OURS.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Mind if I ask when you grew up here, Kenji-san?<BR>
> <BR>
> Who says I grew up?<BR>
> <BR>
I believe, Shuwarutsu-san (LOL), that you said so.  In the paragraph<BR>
above.<BR>
<BR>
> And that's Shuwarutsu-san.  Kuroda-san if you're nasty.<BR>
> <BR>
You are too funny.  LOL, Kuroda.  Kuro da yo.  That's the name of<BR>
Hiroshi's CAT.  (Guess what color it is.)  Yes I know what Schwarz means,<BR>
a very dear friend of mine was referred to by the Harnsbarger cousins as<BR>
a "schwartzen" or something like that.<BR>
<BR>
fukaku nominasai (CAW slogan is)<BR>
kiri chan yori  ^_^<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 19:06:03 -0600<BR>
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Klingon Software Quality Assurance (fwd)<BR>
<BR>
Could you forward all of them :)<BR>
I have seen them, from a professional programmer buddy, but I would love to<BR>
have them to keep<BR>
<BR>
TV<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ------------<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Friday, November 05, 1999 5:46 PM<BR>
Subject: Klingon Software Quality Assurance (fwd)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
><BR>
>> The top 12 things likely to be overheard if you had<BR>
>>Klingon programmers working for you:<BR>
><BR>
>This explains a lot about my experiences with various<BR>
>companies' tech support.  Thanks.<BR>
><BR>
>--Glenn<BR>
><BR>
>=====<BR>
><BR>
>__________________________________________________<BR>
>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 20:56:32 -0500<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Website revamped and Deckplans up<BR>
<BR>
At 03:03 PM 11/4/99 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>. I also so where they want to require a "client user fee"<BR>
>for ever client that connects to a Win2000 server.<BR>
<BR>
That's true for NT 4.0 server as well.  (And also for Novell, and most <BR>
non-free Unixi).  That's what the "Licensing" entry in the Control Panel is <BR>
for...<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 20:58:20 -0500<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: GT Starship gearheadedness (kinda long)<BR>
<BR>
At 03:06 PM 11/4/99 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>Well, yeah, that's what I mean. According to GT errata, the bays in the book<BR>
>should take up 50 spaces *inside* the hull. Yet it says on GT pg. 152 (no<BR>
>errata) that "Surface area: ... number shown in the "area" column on the<BR>
>Hull Table (p. 151) plus the surface area of all turrets and bays. ... Each<BR>
>bay has an area of 6,500."<BR>
<BR>
That's been erratad (I think...)  Total Surface area should be body+ <BR>
turret, not bay.  However, bays take 50 spaces in the hull, Turrets only <BR>
take 1 (for the mounting hardware).<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 21:00:51 -0500<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: 2nd Amendment<BR>
<BR>
At 04:37 PM 11/4/99 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>If the Second Amendment means "the States" (i.e., bearing of arms<BR>
>limited to National Guard units) when it says "The People", this would<BR>
>be afaik the only place in the Constitution & the Bill of Rights where the<BR>
>one is used to mean the  other. There are several places where the two<BR>
>words are used with clearly different meanings, often in the same clauses,<BR>
>indicating that the framers had the obvious meanings of "The People" and<BR>
>"The States" in mind.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, the constitution uses "People" to mean "States" any number of <BR>
times.  That's the basis for the Supreme Court decision saying that the 2nd <BR>
applies to National Guard units....  Not that I agree with them....<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 20:57:23 -0500<BR>
From: "Micheal D. Peters" <Travelleri@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cons On Ice Scenario Idea<BR>
<BR>
In Traveller, try Fate of the Skyraiders. Giant asteroid ship, etc. Oh and<BR>
Judges Guide did one too (Nowhere near as good!) Drakne Station i think.<BR>
<BR>
Also didn't Behind the Claw alude to a group of RoM era stl ships heading<BR>
toward the Marches?<BR>
<BR>
Mike<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 6:51 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Cons On Ice Scenario Idea<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
> ><BR>
> >> "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us> wrote:<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> > PCs come across a STL generation vessel, with several thousand<BR>
> >> > members of some minor race held in Cold Sleep.  Probably no info<BR>
> >> > available to translate the linguistics of the computer records, and<BR>
> >> > everything on board indicates that this is a colony ship of some form<BR>
> >> > or another.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Uh-huh.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> <montelbam><BR>
> >> Kiiiiirrrrrrrkkkkkk!!!<BR>
> >> </montelbam><BR>
> >><BR>
> >> <shatner><BR>
> >> Kaaaaaahhhhhhnnnnnn!!!<BR>
> >> </shatner><BR>
> ><BR>
> > That thought did race through my mind as I typed that paragraph in.<BR>
> > *grin*<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Other than that, what could you suggest or expound on?<BR>
><BR>
> I'd suggest checking out a few of the "classic" generation ship<BR>
> stories. Heinlein's "Orphans of the Sky" has a generation ship that has<BR>
> descended into barbarism after a mutiny among the crew killed too many<BR>
> people.<BR>
><BR>
> Then there's Brian Aldiss's "Starship" where we have another generation<BR>
> ship where things have gone badly wrong. Though it takes a while to<BR>
> realize that's the setting. In this case, they are on the way *back*<BR>
> from a coplonizing trip that didn't work out. And things have gone<BR>
> wrong because of something they picked up.<BR>
><BR>
> Oh yeah, I knew there was at least one more! Delany's "The Ballad of<BR>
> Beta 2" (this and "Babel-17" are Delany books for people who don't like<BR>
> his better known books). It's pretty short, but it deals with a culture<BR>
> on generation ships as well. It's got a sort of "anthropologist" doing<BR>
> a followup to an earlier "cultural survey" of the culture on a fleet<BR>
> fleet of generation ships that had been discovered many, many years<BR>
> back in orbit around a star that wasn't theor original destination.<BR>
> It's got nice touches such as vocabulary shifts as succeeding<BR>
> generations found new uses for words that didn't have a referent in<BR>
> their "world" ("sand" was what they called interstellar high radiation<BR>
> areas, being mostly in low g or no g "arms" shifted to mean "limb", and<BR>
> "sore feet" was a term describing the way they felt in a normal g area.<BR>
><BR>
> There's another one that I can't recall the author of. It's got a<BR>
> pseudo Aztec culture living in a mountain valley. And then our hero<BR>
> decides to break the taboos and go exploring. He climbs the monutains<BR>
> and finds that they touch the sky! Turns out the "valley" is the inside<BR>
> of a generation ship. I can't recall why the passengers were handled<BR>
> that way.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 21:02:32 -0500<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Border Guards <BR>
<BR>
At 02:36 PM 11/4/99 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>Nope, the author was Isaac Asimov, the professor's name was IIRC Dr.<BR>
>Wendell Urth or something similar.  Gods, I haven't read those stories in<BR>
>25 years and I still remember bits of them.<BR>
<BR>
That's right.  I just re-read them recently, but for the life of me I <BR>
couldn't remember who wrote them...  You are correct on the doc's name, too.<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 20:05:19 -0600<BR>
From: Dan Roseberry <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Nonhuman languages<BR>
<BR>
Kenji Schwarz wrote:<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
I vote for Droyne (Oynprith) and Newt (Bwapths)<----massively abrv.<BR>
<BR>
Dan Rosebery (plop101) another quick and dirty post AQDP<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:12:30 -0500<BR>
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Marc Miller's new website for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
I asked Marc and he said it was alright to begin publicizing the new site.<BR>
He has quite a bit of the work completed and I'm sure he would welcome<BR>
feedback on what he is doing.  I for one would be interested to hear the<BR>
feedback and discussion happen right here on the TML, unless you think that<BR>
would needlessly clog the list with on-topic posts ;-)<BR>
<BR>
http://members.aol.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
And don't forget to vote for your favorite version.  And if you can't decide<BR>
then just vote for T5.  Then at least no one will enumerate 17 items of<BR>
errata that make the entire system unworkable!<BR>
<BR>
And now for the first comment about the site: is it me or does the start<BR>
page look completely different with Netscrape than with Internet Exploder?<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
The TRAVELLER Domain<BR>
http://www.downport.com<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1318<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (rly-zb01.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.1]) by air-zb02.mail.aol.com (v62.15) with ESMTP; Fri, 05 Nov 1999 21:17:49 -0500<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (v62.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 05 Nov 1999 21:17:29 -0500<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id VAA44202;<BR>
	Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:17:05 -0500 (EST)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:16:48 -0500<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id VAA44152<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:16:48 -0500 (EST)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:16:48 -0500 (EST)<BR>
Message-Id: <199911060216.VAA44152@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #1318<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
